Junior man vs 117
01-09-2014, 02:08 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 944
Originally Posted by A320Flyer
ALPA's clarification...
Q-32. A flightcrew member is on days off. Can the company call him for a flight assignment?
A-32. Yes. If the flightcrew member answers the call, the
company can assign him to flight duty. However, the
Company must give the flightcrew the required 10-hour
rest period and then place the crewmember on short call
reserve.
Nothing here says 10 hours rest from the time of the call to the time of the assignment.
Example:
I arrived Saturday night 23:00 local, and at 00:00 on Sunday I'm officially on a day off.... I then get called 11:00am Sunday for an JA. Well, I've been on rest for 12 hours. The minimum required rest since my last FDP has been provided (10 hours)... They then place me on a "11:00am RAP" for my future FDP determination and out to fly I go. They cannot assign JA me for a trip on the day off if they did not give me the required prior 10 hour rest.
Again, where does it say that one needs 10 hours from the time of the solicitation call to the assignment on a day off?
Q-32. A flightcrew member is on days off. Can the company call him for a flight assignment?
A-32. Yes. If the flightcrew member answers the call, the
company can assign him to flight duty. However, the
Company must give the flightcrew the required 10-hour
rest period and then place the crewmember on short call
reserve.
Nothing here says 10 hours rest from the time of the call to the time of the assignment.
Example:
I arrived Saturday night 23:00 local, and at 00:00 on Sunday I'm officially on a day off.... I then get called 11:00am Sunday for an JA. Well, I've been on rest for 12 hours. The minimum required rest since my last FDP has been provided (10 hours)... They then place me on a "11:00am RAP" for my future FDP determination and out to fly I go. They cannot assign JA me for a trip on the day off if they did not give me the required prior 10 hour rest.
Again, where does it say that one needs 10 hours from the time of the solicitation call to the assignment on a day off?
01-09-2014, 02:21 PM
#43
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 501
Originally Posted by captscott26
Look, your beef is with ALPA legal's interpretation, so go call national and argue with them. Just be aware that this is how most airlines have interpreted it. I don't get what the big deal is anyway...you want to work, put your name on the avail list and you are good to go. If you want to talk about this any further I'm sure you have my number.
I rest my case... done arguing....
01-09-2014, 02:31 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,524
Originally Posted by A320Flyer
That's not the point. I can always put myself available, of course. The point is if someone is JA'ed, say one our new hires on probation, and he refuses a legal assignment based on an possible erroneous "interpretation" received by our union on that e-mail...then what?!
I rest my case... done arguing....
I rest my case... done arguing....
01-09-2014, 03:04 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 354
Source:
https://www.federalregister.gov/arti...t-requirements
vi. Assigning an FDP
A4A and Alaska Air asked whether a rest period that is longer than the regulatory minimum could be terminated early if the resulting rest satisfied the minimum regulatory requirements. ALPA asked whether an air carrier could contact a flightcrew member when the flightcrew member is off duty but not on a rest period to give a flight assignment. If so, ALPA questioned whether the carrier must provide at least 10 hours of rest prior to the flight assignment. ALPA also asked whether a flightcrew member could voluntarily elect to “pick up a trip” from open time if he or she will have the requisite rest prior to the report time for that trip.
As discussed above, the start of a previously-scheduled FDP can only be changed by utilizing the reserve provisions of § 117.21. As such, a certificate holder that wishes to bump up the time of a previously-scheduled FDP would have to provide the flightcrew member with the pertinent long-call-reserve notice of the FDP change. Alternatively, if a certificate holder anticipates that it may need to call in a flightcrew member for an FDP, then that certificate holder should provide the flightcrew member with the required 10-hour rest period and then place the flightcrew member on short-call reserve.
These circumstances change if a flightcrew member decides, on his/her own initiative, to pick up a trip from open time, as the regulations do not prohibit this practice as long as the flightcrew member has received the required rest. However, the FAA cautions flightcrew members that § 117.5(a) requires a flightcrew member to “report for any flight duty period rested and prepared to perform his or her assigned duties.” The preamble to the final rule explains that this provision was added to the regulations to, among other things, “discourage flightcrew-member practices such as picking up extra hours.” [44] Thus, while a flightcrew member is free to voluntarily pick up extra flight hours from open time, the flightcrew member may be in violation of § 117.5(a) if this activity results in the flightcrew member becoming unduly fatigued.
Turning to ALPA's other question, if a flightcrew member is not on a rest period, the certificate holder may contact the flightcrew member to schedule a flight assignment. [45] However, pursuant to § 117.25(b) and (e), the certificate holder would then need to provide that flightcrew member with the requisite rest period prior to beginning the FDP. The certificate holder would also have to follow the FDP notification requirements of long-call reserve, as this type of contact and FDP assignment would qualify as long-call reserve pursuant to the definition of that term in § 117.3.
https://www.federalregister.gov/arti...t-requirements
vi. Assigning an FDP
A4A and Alaska Air asked whether a rest period that is longer than the regulatory minimum could be terminated early if the resulting rest satisfied the minimum regulatory requirements. ALPA asked whether an air carrier could contact a flightcrew member when the flightcrew member is off duty but not on a rest period to give a flight assignment. If so, ALPA questioned whether the carrier must provide at least 10 hours of rest prior to the flight assignment. ALPA also asked whether a flightcrew member could voluntarily elect to “pick up a trip” from open time if he or she will have the requisite rest prior to the report time for that trip.
As discussed above, the start of a previously-scheduled FDP can only be changed by utilizing the reserve provisions of § 117.21. As such, a certificate holder that wishes to bump up the time of a previously-scheduled FDP would have to provide the flightcrew member with the pertinent long-call-reserve notice of the FDP change. Alternatively, if a certificate holder anticipates that it may need to call in a flightcrew member for an FDP, then that certificate holder should provide the flightcrew member with the required 10-hour rest period and then place the flightcrew member on short-call reserve.
These circumstances change if a flightcrew member decides, on his/her own initiative, to pick up a trip from open time, as the regulations do not prohibit this practice as long as the flightcrew member has received the required rest. However, the FAA cautions flightcrew members that § 117.5(a) requires a flightcrew member to “report for any flight duty period rested and prepared to perform his or her assigned duties.” The preamble to the final rule explains that this provision was added to the regulations to, among other things, “discourage flightcrew-member practices such as picking up extra hours.” [44] Thus, while a flightcrew member is free to voluntarily pick up extra flight hours from open time, the flightcrew member may be in violation of § 117.5(a) if this activity results in the flightcrew member becoming unduly fatigued.
Turning to ALPA's other question, if a flightcrew member is not on a rest period, the certificate holder may contact the flightcrew member to schedule a flight assignment. [45] However, pursuant to § 117.25(b) and (e), the certificate holder would then need to provide that flightcrew member with the requisite rest period prior to beginning the FDP. The certificate holder would also have to follow the FDP notification requirements of long-call reserve, as this type of contact and FDP assignment would qualify as long-call reserve pursuant to the definition of that term in § 117.3.
01-09-2014, 03:35 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,577
Originally Posted by A320Flyer
Again, where does it say that one needs 10 hours from the time of the solicitation call to the assignment on a day off?
These circumstances change if a flightcrew member decides, on his/her own initiative, to pick up a trip from open time, as the regulations do not prohibit this practice as long as the flightcrew member has received the required rest.
01-09-2014, 04:00 PM
#47
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by RonnyK320
This is how stupid the government is:
Old way:
Call at 12pm, "Can you come to the airport and fly?" Get there at 2pm, home by 10pm, go to sleep, normal sleep pattern.
New way:
Call at 12pm, "Can you come to the airport and fly?" Get 10 hours rest during the day when you can't sleep, show at 10pm, fly all night. You're tired, and the flight is now dangerous.
Government is no longer looking out for the citizens, government it's looking out for itself. It's nothing but a bunch of bureaucrats justifying their jobs, and waiting to retire so they can enjoy that ridiculous pension. Vote Libertarian. Okay, I'm done...
RK
Old way:
Call at 12pm, "Can you come to the airport and fly?" Get there at 2pm, home by 10pm, go to sleep, normal sleep pattern.
New way:
Call at 12pm, "Can you come to the airport and fly?" Get 10 hours rest during the day when you can't sleep, show at 10pm, fly all night. You're tired, and the flight is now dangerous.
Government is no longer looking out for the citizens, government it's looking out for itself. It's nothing but a bunch of bureaucrats justifying their jobs, and waiting to retire so they can enjoy that ridiculous pension. Vote Libertarian. Okay, I'm done...
RK
This is how stupid the govt was. Under the old rules a pilot on an international fleet could start SC @ 0300 and be on it for 24 hours. At 1800(15 hours into his SC) he would be unable to operate JFK-SFO or JFK-LAX, but could still operate a 2 man flight sync as JFK-DUB, JFK, GEO, or JFK-SNN. The new rules fix this. Part 117 has made improvements. Besides, under the old rules nothing stopped airlines from making pilots fly in the middle of the night.
01-09-2014, 04:01 PM
#48
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by RonnyK320
What if there are no reserves? Spirit has delayed flights that long in the past. My point is, we as pilots should be able to decide if we are fit to fly, not the government.
01-09-2014, 04:04 PM
#49
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
It doesn't matter. The point is the company initiated the phone call on your day off. For this assignment you need a 10 hr rest period and then you can do it.
Last edited by johnso29; 01-10-2014 at 10:51 AM.
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