Flow Negotiations
07-07-2021, 02:53 PM
#72
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,469
Originally Posted by BigZ
dera, which part of the language being different for the DOS group in 15-01 is not understandable?
How it gets applied is another question, but "in the calendar year" does not appear anywhere in the prior groups and I don't believe in accidental nature of any legal language.
How it gets applied is another question, but "in the calendar year" does not appear anywhere in the prior groups and I don't believe in accidental nature of any legal language.
"lesser of"
and
"times the number of calendar months in that calendar year in which American actually hired pilots."
If one month Envoy sends 0, they are still restricted by the 25% at the end of the year, or 20 ish/month based on the pilot group size.
So if AA does not hire from January to May, but then hires for 6 months until the end of the year, Envoy has to flow around 120 pilots that year. 0 until May, 20 until December. Lesser of then is the 20 a month, times the number of months AA hired, 6 = 120 that year.
Extreme example to clarify this. If AA hires for one month, Envoy will send 20 pilots that year.
07-07-2021, 02:56 PM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,128
Don’t negotiate for what you’ll eventually get anyway. As the shortage worsens they’ll speed up flow to attract new pilots. Also, get rid of the language that allows them to send more if THEY choose. When they NEED to increase flow it will become a bargaining tool that they have to ask the union. Use it to increase the minimum flow, and to get back the 50% of all new hire positions... adding in.... of each class. Forget by month, quarter or year. You want it per class.
07-07-2021, 03:05 PM
#74
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,469
Originally Posted by Cujo665
Don’t negotiate for what you’ll eventually get anyway. As the shortage worsens they’ll speed up flow to attract new pilots. Also, get rid of the language that allows them to send more if THEY choose. When they NEED to increase flow it will become a bargaining tool that they have to ask the union. Use it to increase the minimum flow, and to get back the 50% of all new hire positions... adding in.... of each class. Forget by month, quarter or year. You want it per class.
07-07-2021, 03:06 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: 175 CA
Posts: 1,285
Originally Posted by dera
Market forces will dictate flow numbers. AA wont negotiate them until they need it. Envoy has no say on it, because they need to keep parity with PSA and Piedmont.
07-07-2021, 03:11 PM
#76
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,469
Originally Posted by Varsity
We're already behind PSA and Piedmont, who are flowing 2016 hires. Envoy still has 2013 hires on property waiting to go.
07-07-2021, 03:13 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Position: On the Line
Posts: 286
Originally Posted by Varsity
We're already behind PSA and Piedmont, who are flowing 2016 hires. Envoy still has 2013 hires on property waiting to go.
07-07-2021, 05:12 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,054
Originally Posted by dera
It's in 18-01.
"lesser of"
and
"times the number of calendar months in that calendar year in which American actually hired pilots."
If one month Envoy sends 0, they are still restricted by the 25% at the end of the year, or 20 ish/month based on the pilot group size.
So if AA does not hire from January to May, but then hires for 6 months until the end of the year, Envoy has to flow around 120 pilots that year. 0 until May, 20 until December. Lesser of then is the 20 a month, times the number of months AA hired, 6 = 120 that year.
Extreme example to clarify this. If AA hires for one month, Envoy will send 20 pilots that year.
"lesser of"
and
"times the number of calendar months in that calendar year in which American actually hired pilots."
If one month Envoy sends 0, they are still restricted by the 25% at the end of the year, or 20 ish/month based on the pilot group size.
So if AA does not hire from January to May, but then hires for 6 months until the end of the year, Envoy has to flow around 120 pilots that year. 0 until May, 20 until December. Lesser of then is the 20 a month, times the number of months AA hired, 6 = 120 that year.
Extreme example to clarify this. If AA hires for one month, Envoy will send 20 pilots that year.
Let's do a read along together.
18-01 says "5. With respect to the provisions concerning “Pilots Hired After DOS” in Letter 15-01 (Page 7), Envoy and the Association hereby confirm that the accurate interpretation and application of those provisions is as follows:
...
• If American is entering new hire pilots into training in a given calendar year, Envoy will release Envoy pilots, to permit them to participate in American new-hire training classes, in an amount that is the lesser of (a) twenty-five percent (25%) of all new pilot positions at American that are filled in the relevant calendar year; or (b) five (5) new pilot positions at American (increased by one for every 125 pilots above the base number of 480 on the Envoy pilot seniority list) times the number of calendar months in that calendar year in which American actually hired pilots."
In other words, it's good that you actually read it, but the language in there doesn't say what you say it does.
Say AA hires 300 in the first six months of a year then another 600 in the last 6 months of a year minus December.
You say 12x6 + 20x5 = 172, right?
I say the lesser of 900x0.25 = 225 or 20x11=220 - which would be 220 in this case.
As a friendly reminder, you still owe me a beer from the last exercise in document digging.
07-07-2021, 05:46 PM
#79
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,469
Originally Posted by BigZ
Oh cool, we are starting to get somewhere.
Let's do a read along together.
18-01 says "5. With respect to the provisions concerning “Pilots Hired After DOS” in Letter 15-01 (Page 7), Envoy and the Association hereby confirm that the accurate interpretation and application of those provisions is as follows:
...
• If American is entering new hire pilots into training in a given calendar year, Envoy will release Envoy pilots, to permit them to participate in American new-hire training classes, in an amount that is the lesser of (a) twenty-five percent (25%) of all new pilot positions at American that are filled in the relevant calendar year; or (b) five (5) new pilot positions at American (increased by one for every 125 pilots above the base number of 480 on the Envoy pilot seniority list) times the number of calendar months in that calendar year in which American actually hired pilots."
In other words, it's good that you actually read it, but the language in there doesn't say what you say it does.
Say AA hires 300 in the first six months of a year then another 600 in the last 6 months of a year minus December.
You say 12x6 + 20x5 = 172, right?
I say the lesser of 900x0.25 = 225 or 20x11=220 - which would be 220 in this case.
As a friendly reminder, you still owe me a beer from the last exercise in document digging.
Let's do a read along together.
18-01 says "5. With respect to the provisions concerning “Pilots Hired After DOS” in Letter 15-01 (Page 7), Envoy and the Association hereby confirm that the accurate interpretation and application of those provisions is as follows:
...
• If American is entering new hire pilots into training in a given calendar year, Envoy will release Envoy pilots, to permit them to participate in American new-hire training classes, in an amount that is the lesser of (a) twenty-five percent (25%) of all new pilot positions at American that are filled in the relevant calendar year; or (b) five (5) new pilot positions at American (increased by one for every 125 pilots above the base number of 480 on the Envoy pilot seniority list) times the number of calendar months in that calendar year in which American actually hired pilots."
In other words, it's good that you actually read it, but the language in there doesn't say what you say it does.
Say AA hires 300 in the first six months of a year then another 600 in the last 6 months of a year minus December.
You say 12x6 + 20x5 = 172, right?
I say the lesser of 900x0.25 = 225 or 20x11=220 - which would be 220 in this case.
As a friendly reminder, you still owe me a beer from the last exercise in document digging.
The post you originally replied to was where I said if AA is hiring 660 a year, Envoy will then flow 13.75 a month. Or 15 a month if they hire 720 a full year. The only way the catchup works is if they drastically ramp up their hiring mid year, but it's not relevant to any of the scenarios that were discussed.
And what management is doing, let's just say, don't hold your breath on that happening.
You never claimed the beer. It's on me, just lmk.
07-07-2021, 06:54 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 181
Originally Posted by dera
So you are flowing 18 a month. Where is the catchup? Sending 0 for 6 months and then 35 the next months does not change your flow date.
The post you originally replied to was where I said if AA is hiring 660 a year, Envoy will then flow 13.75 a month. Or 15 a month if they hire 720 a full year. The only way the catchup works is if they drastically ramp up their hiring mid year, but it's not relevant to any of the scenarios that were discussed.
And what management is doing, let's just say, don't hold your breath on that happening.
You never claimed the beer. It's on me, just lmk.
The post you originally replied to was where I said if AA is hiring 660 a year, Envoy will then flow 13.75 a month. Or 15 a month if they hire 720 a full year. The only way the catchup works is if they drastically ramp up their hiring mid year, but it's not relevant to any of the scenarios that were discussed.
And what management is doing, let's just say, don't hold your breath on that happening.
You never claimed the beer. It's on me, just lmk.
I think management will be 💩 ‘ing themselves the next 12 months. They really are clueless. If they don’t fix the flow to something manageable, no will stay and worse for them, no one will come. The training department will be the key. I think we’ll still see mid seniority attrition, but if the upgrade classes can keep up, i think they’ll flow all they can because it’s the only shot they have of tricking 23 year olds into coming here
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