New Envoy Information
04-15-2016 | 11:05 AM
#2381
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
In 2 years we certainly shouldn't have any involuntary 8yr FO's anymore.
In 2 years we will have lost around 500-550 more CA's due to flow and attrition. (Being conservative). Say only 100 more flow later this year. Only 300 flow next year, not 360. Only 75 flow in the first 4 months of 2018. Numbers could be quite a bit higher if the actual projected amount flow. Plus 3 to 4 a month of Captains are consistantly leaving to other places. So thats another 70-80 Ca's gone over the next 2 years. Not to mention senior FO's leaving as well over that time period.
The next big vacancy award after this 10 upgrades, should jump to 2010 hires for upgrade. They were claiming 110 more upgrades this year. Now today they just announced 3 more aircraft coming back. Thats 15 more CA slots than previously planned now.
2010 will go quick through upgrades, 2011 will take a while, then it will jump to 2013 because there is only 8 people in 2012. After that there is not many pilots at all on the list. In 2 years from now 2014 guys should be getting CA upgrades. After them, there is not a lot of pilots to go through at all for someone hired today. We have 28 new hires for April. Now we need to maintain 20+/month new hires. Once people start to realize things are changing here, and they are, we will hopefully be able to do that. They might need to throw more money at the FO's in the future to get them and hopefully they do.
# of FO's each year to get through for upgrade:
2010-103
2011-293
2012-8
2013-72
2014-64
2015-110
2016-72
In 2 years we will have lost around 500-550 more CA's due to flow and attrition. (Being conservative). Say only 100 more flow later this year. Only 300 flow next year, not 360. Only 75 flow in the first 4 months of 2018. Numbers could be quite a bit higher if the actual projected amount flow. Plus 3 to 4 a month of Captains are consistantly leaving to other places. So thats another 70-80 Ca's gone over the next 2 years. Not to mention senior FO's leaving as well over that time period.
The next big vacancy award after this 10 upgrades, should jump to 2010 hires for upgrade. They were claiming 110 more upgrades this year. Now today they just announced 3 more aircraft coming back. Thats 15 more CA slots than previously planned now.
2010 will go quick through upgrades, 2011 will take a while, then it will jump to 2013 because there is only 8 people in 2012. After that there is not many pilots at all on the list. In 2 years from now 2014 guys should be getting CA upgrades. After them, there is not a lot of pilots to go through at all for someone hired today. We have 28 new hires for April. Now we need to maintain 20+/month new hires. Once people start to realize things are changing here, and they are, we will hopefully be able to do that. They might need to throw more money at the FO's in the future to get them and hopefully they do.
# of FO's each year to get through for upgrade:
2010-103
2011-293
2012-8
2013-72
2014-64
2015-110
2016-72
04-15-2016 | 11:17 AM
#2382
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 894
Likes: 0
This got my attention recently because I flew with a 5 year FO who was leaving for Spirit.
I asked him why and he named off a litany of things, all negative. Some people will always be negative and I spent some time with him trying to show how much he had to lose over his career by comparing all the benefits he had by staying here.
My point was essentially, you have no more than 2 to 3 years absolute max before flowing and you are throwing an AA career away for Spirit? Spirit's pay is horrible and you would then just be another applicant off the street begging to get hired at any legacy. And what have you accomplished? You are basically at the Mesa of LCCs.
It blows my mind but again, there will always be people like yourself who see nothing but the negative in anything here and refuse to adjust your attitude. If I had to guess, you are probably some old turboprop driver who got hired at Chapparal or something like that and lucked out when Eagle bought your company. You're probably a lifer here because your resume would go directly to the round file if you were actually trying to get hired here today.
I asked him why and he named off a litany of things, all negative. Some people will always be negative and I spent some time with him trying to show how much he had to lose over his career by comparing all the benefits he had by staying here.
My point was essentially, you have no more than 2 to 3 years absolute max before flowing and you are throwing an AA career away for Spirit? Spirit's pay is horrible and you would then just be another applicant off the street begging to get hired at any legacy. And what have you accomplished? You are basically at the Mesa of LCCs.
It blows my mind but again, there will always be people like yourself who see nothing but the negative in anything here and refuse to adjust your attitude. If I had to guess, you are probably some old turboprop driver who got hired at Chapparal or something like that and lucked out when Eagle bought your company. You're probably a lifer here because your resume would go directly to the round file if you were actually trying to get hired here today.
Frontier is another story, leaving for there with more than 5 years seniority here is just dumb unless you live in one of their bases. Their FO pay is horrid for an Airbus. You basically HAVE to upgrade there quick or you are screwed. It would take me over 10 years just to get back to where my pay is now if the upgrade train came to a screeching halt (which could easily happen with these rapidly changing LCC's). Plus their contract negotiations will likely be dragged out for YEARS, 4-5 more years easily. Why wouldn't they with that cheap labor and still getting all the new hires they want?
04-15-2016 | 11:25 AM
#2383
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 894
Likes: 0
Personally, I think we will flow 150 more this year and over 300 next year.. and I think our CA and senior FO attrition to other carriers will greatly increase over the next couple years as well. SWA is rumored to soon dump the 1000 TPIC requirement also.
04-15-2016 | 12:03 PM
#2384
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
Our VP of flight ops started making that statement 12 months ago and our upgrade time remains largely at the same place it was then.
04-15-2016 | 12:21 PM
#2385
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
I can understand guys leaving for Spirit for QOL reasons (not career pay). They have a good contract, 4 days off guaranteed between trips. Great transition/conflict language. Many of them I know get 16-18 days off a month which is a lot better than most get at AA or here for sure. I don't think it's a wise move looking (long term) career vs AA, but I definitely can see why people would go there. I use to want to go to Spirit until the flow got closer, now it would be stupid for me to go there and their upgrade has slowed as well.
Frontier is another story, leaving for there with more than 5 years seniority here is just dumb unless you live in one of their bases. Their FO pay is horrid for an Airbus. You basically HAVE to upgrade there quick or you are screwed. It would take me over 10 years just to get back to where my pay is now if the upgrade train came to a screeching halt (which could easily happen with these rapidly changing LCC's). Plus their contract negotiations will likely be dragged out for YEARS, 4-5 more years easily. Why wouldn't they with that cheap labor and still getting all the new hires they want?
Frontier is another story, leaving for there with more than 5 years seniority here is just dumb unless you live in one of their bases. Their FO pay is horrid for an Airbus. You basically HAVE to upgrade there quick or you are screwed. It would take me over 10 years just to get back to where my pay is now if the upgrade train came to a screeching halt (which could easily happen with these rapidly changing LCC's). Plus their contract negotiations will likely be dragged out for YEARS, 4-5 more years easily. Why wouldn't they with that cheap labor and still getting all the new hires they want?
However, unless we get more aircraft on order, we likely hired our last Captain either at the end of 15 or in this first quarter of 16. So yes, it's much better here in many ways if you are OK with being an FO for a long time. You have to decide where you are on the list at Envoy before thinking about coming here. I would say that if you are junior at Envoy, it would likely be worth a shot with the uncertainty of the flow beyond the 824.
04-15-2016 | 12:29 PM
#2386
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 894
Likes: 0
Next group on the next big vacancy will likely get us into 2010 hires upgrading, We are very close to it now. With 110 more upgrades this year and 3 more planes coming back as of today. They should have awarded upgrades through the 2010 hires by the end of the year, probably not quite all of them but close to it. Next year we will start upgrading 2011 hires. 2011 hires will take at least 1 year to 1.5 to get through since there is a lot of them. Then, it will drop RAPIDLY into 2015 hires. 2.5 - 3 years from "today" is not far fetched at all with our attrition. Rick's 2.5 claims were about a year pre-mature, which is what pretty much everyone of us said.
2010-103
2011-293
2012-8
2013-72
2014-64
2015-110
2016-72
Last edited by RyanP; 04-15-2016 at 12:40 PM.
04-15-2016 | 04:26 PM
#2388
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,054
Likes: 0
This got my attention recently because I flew with a 5 year FO who was leaving for Spirit.
I asked him why and he named off a litany of things, all negative. Some people will always be negative and I spent some time with him trying to show how much he had to lose over his career by comparing all the benefits he had by staying here.
My point was essentially, you have no more than 2 to 3 years absolute max before flowing and you are throwing an AA career away for Spirit? Spirit's pay is horrible and you would then just be another applicant off the street begging to get hired at any legacy. And what have you accomplished? You are basically at the Mesa of LCCs.
I asked him why and he named off a litany of things, all negative. Some people will always be negative and I spent some time with him trying to show how much he had to lose over his career by comparing all the benefits he had by staying here.
My point was essentially, you have no more than 2 to 3 years absolute max before flowing and you are throwing an AA career away for Spirit? Spirit's pay is horrible and you would then just be another applicant off the street begging to get hired at any legacy. And what have you accomplished? You are basically at the Mesa of LCCs.
What do you do? Blame him. Yes it's all his fault for having had enough of the horror show and bailing, not believing anything you say about a bright future because all you have done is lie in the past. It's his fault though.
Potential envoy applicants: this is your management. These are the people, so out of touch with reality, that are going to control virtually every aspect of your life. When the honeymoon of flying a shiny jet is over, that is what you will be left with: some guy that doesn't understand why you are sick and tired of being away from home all but 10-12 days per month, sleeping in roach motels in wonderful locales like Waco, Tx, Grand Island Nebraska, and the ever popular turd hole Jackson MS, where your food choice is a gas station.
04-15-2016 | 04:47 PM
#2389
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
What baffles me, is the person who chooses to leave and then keeps coming back to threads about envoy trying to validate their decision. Such actions, to me, scream a lack of confidence in one's choice.
04-15-2016 | 05:47 PM
#2390
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 540
Likes: 0
So the guy to chose to leave thinks the flow won't work. The guy that chose to stay thinks it will. Both think that they have made the right decision. Its OK to have an opinion, and we all need to make the choice that we feel is best for us but none of us know for certain we have made the right one. Whether someone has made the "right" choice or not, respect for the other person should prevent us from attacking him. Its OK if someone makes a choice that is different than our own.
What baffles me, is the person who chooses to leave and then keeps coming back to threads about envoy trying to validate their decision. Such actions, to me, scream a lack of confidence in one's choice.
What baffles me, is the person who chooses to leave and then keeps coming back to threads about envoy trying to validate their decision. Such actions, to me, scream a lack of confidence in one's choice.
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