New Envoy Information
06-26-2016 | 05:49 AM
#3552
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 667
Likes: 0
For all that are wondering whether Envoy is a good fit for you here is something to look at.
Is this airline hiring more bodies monthly than it is losing?
Quality of life at any airline means people in behind you. Moving up on the seniority list does little to help you in a holding any decent schedule or bidding for any decent vacation weeks. When you are always at the bottom ten percent you will always get the garbage no one wants.
Another thing to look at is when and if you actually hold a line. Normaly holding a line at any airline is a QOL bump. But if the airline keeps getting the scraps of all the garbage flying all the other airlines don't want you end up with lines that are even worse than being on reserve. So you have to take account not how long you can hold a line, more so, you have to take into account how long you can hold a line worthy of bidding off reserve. Most junior line holders don't come into play at Envoy. If you look at the reserve list you will see many senior folks bidding reserve because the lines are even worse than reserve itself.
Another issue is your own personal tolerance to pain. If you have a low tolerance for being lied to, or a low tolerance of having a company violate any contractual gains you or your Union may have gained over the years, then Envoy may not be the place for you.
Another issue to look at is your own level of self respect. If you go to Envoy expecting to be treated well, this may be a problem.
No one can make the choice for you on where a good home would be. Only you and your family can make that choice.
If you do choose to go to an airline like Envoy, do it going in with the fact that most likely you will have few come in behind you. Their hiring numbers are a fact, and are well short of keeping up with attrition.
The lines to be had whether you commute or not, based off their own unions emails, have clearly stated they see no hope for improvements. Not only that, I was told that the company has now been keeping union members from getting leave to help build the lines. So know that going in, even though you may hold a line, you will be wishing you were on reserve for years.
It would be unwise to go to any airline with the hopes of good things to come. Go back and look at the Envoy threads. For years now good things have always been around the corner, yet nothing ever comes from the rumors.
Even ALPA has run the numbers on the upgrade/flow projections. Seems to me they don't beleive the numbers will now work out as planned. How I would interpret just that fact alone, is I was being lied to, even before I step through the door. Knowing they have to lie to get me into the door says it all to me. If your company sucks that bad, where you have to lie to me just to get me there I may be better off at Home Depot.
If I were a new hire truly looking at the many different airlines available I would go to a company that pays me the most bang for my buck. That means time for dollars. Who is gonna pay me the most to put up with their BS. Who is gonna get me home more? Who is gonna keep me commuting less, if I have to commute. All those things add up to time for dollars.
You do that and my guess is Envoy would be close to the bottom of your list. The only way I would go to an Envoy would be a solid seniority number at AA. Until they get that your better off making more money somewhere else. And truthfully it seems to me, based off their hiring numbers you risk little by going elswhere. Make as much money as you can at a better paying airline. Enjoy a better QOL and wait to see if AAG actually does a true 100 percent flow through, with AA numbers from day one. Once they do that you can bounce with the extra money you made, and have lost a few spots in seniority due to their inability to hire the required amount of pilots.
If they don't do that chances are they are way too behind to catch up at this point and you will be much happier you went somwhere else, with the extra money in your pocket and your family seeing you more.
All my opinion, but given the fact that pilots are indeed the new currency I would not sell myself short for some pipe dream. Costs a company nothing to lie to you as a way to get you in the door. If the numbers don't add up they simply don't add up, even with common core, the math is wrong. I would park my butt where I get paid the best now, and wait for the other airlines to do something industry leading that has real teeth to it.
Is this airline hiring more bodies monthly than it is losing?
Quality of life at any airline means people in behind you. Moving up on the seniority list does little to help you in a holding any decent schedule or bidding for any decent vacation weeks. When you are always at the bottom ten percent you will always get the garbage no one wants.
Another thing to look at is when and if you actually hold a line. Normaly holding a line at any airline is a QOL bump. But if the airline keeps getting the scraps of all the garbage flying all the other airlines don't want you end up with lines that are even worse than being on reserve. So you have to take account not how long you can hold a line, more so, you have to take into account how long you can hold a line worthy of bidding off reserve. Most junior line holders don't come into play at Envoy. If you look at the reserve list you will see many senior folks bidding reserve because the lines are even worse than reserve itself.
Another issue is your own personal tolerance to pain. If you have a low tolerance for being lied to, or a low tolerance of having a company violate any contractual gains you or your Union may have gained over the years, then Envoy may not be the place for you.
Another issue to look at is your own level of self respect. If you go to Envoy expecting to be treated well, this may be a problem.
No one can make the choice for you on where a good home would be. Only you and your family can make that choice.
If you do choose to go to an airline like Envoy, do it going in with the fact that most likely you will have few come in behind you. Their hiring numbers are a fact, and are well short of keeping up with attrition.
The lines to be had whether you commute or not, based off their own unions emails, have clearly stated they see no hope for improvements. Not only that, I was told that the company has now been keeping union members from getting leave to help build the lines. So know that going in, even though you may hold a line, you will be wishing you were on reserve for years.
It would be unwise to go to any airline with the hopes of good things to come. Go back and look at the Envoy threads. For years now good things have always been around the corner, yet nothing ever comes from the rumors.
Even ALPA has run the numbers on the upgrade/flow projections. Seems to me they don't beleive the numbers will now work out as planned. How I would interpret just that fact alone, is I was being lied to, even before I step through the door. Knowing they have to lie to get me into the door says it all to me. If your company sucks that bad, where you have to lie to me just to get me there I may be better off at Home Depot.
If I were a new hire truly looking at the many different airlines available I would go to a company that pays me the most bang for my buck. That means time for dollars. Who is gonna pay me the most to put up with their BS. Who is gonna get me home more? Who is gonna keep me commuting less, if I have to commute. All those things add up to time for dollars.
You do that and my guess is Envoy would be close to the bottom of your list. The only way I would go to an Envoy would be a solid seniority number at AA. Until they get that your better off making more money somewhere else. And truthfully it seems to me, based off their hiring numbers you risk little by going elswhere. Make as much money as you can at a better paying airline. Enjoy a better QOL and wait to see if AAG actually does a true 100 percent flow through, with AA numbers from day one. Once they do that you can bounce with the extra money you made, and have lost a few spots in seniority due to their inability to hire the required amount of pilots.
If they don't do that chances are they are way too behind to catch up at this point and you will be much happier you went somwhere else, with the extra money in your pocket and your family seeing you more.
All my opinion, but given the fact that pilots are indeed the new currency I would not sell myself short for some pipe dream. Costs a company nothing to lie to you as a way to get you in the door. If the numbers don't add up they simply don't add up, even with common core, the math is wrong. I would park my butt where I get paid the best now, and wait for the other airlines to do something industry leading that has real teeth to it.
06-26-2016 | 06:19 AM
#3555
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 833
Likes: 0
From: Feito no Brasil, CA
New Envoy Information
That's not true. I have bid packs from last summer from a couple bases. Lines had better commutability, better cadence, fewer lost days. The line values were all over the place, some were high, many were at or near guarantee. They weren't as "good" as the spring of 2015, though. They didn't start really falling apart until after August. That's when the trend started for commutability to take a dump, lost days became regular, average days off lowered and values were below guarantee.
There are three times when our lines historically become difficult - the Spring and Fall schedule changes and the Summer extra flying that stresses staffing. IMO at each of these change points for many years now the schedules have gotten worse and not improved. Cumulative degradation. I say "good" regarding 2015, that "good" was still worse than the years preceding it.
06-26-2016 | 06:35 AM
#3556
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 667
Likes: 0
There ya go. We are bottom pay, bottom QOL. They're are not much better, on rules, etc. Yet they pay more, so they get more. But hey we have flow, yes your life will suck for 9 years, but we have flow to the third worst contract of the legacies, that sale seems to be working.
06-26-2016 | 08:05 AM
#3557
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,865
Likes: 115
That's not true. I have bid packs from last summer from a couple bases. Lines had better commutability, better cadence, fewer lost days. The line values were all over the place, some were high, many were at or near guarantee. They weren't as "good" as the spring of 2015, though. They didn't start really falling apart until after August. That's when the trend started for commutability to take a dump, lost days became regular, average days off lowered and values were below guarantee.
There are three times when our lines historically become difficult - the Spring and Fall schedule changes and the Summer extra flying that stresses staffing. IMO at each of these change points for many years now the schedules have gotten worse and not improved. Cumulative degradation. I say "good" regarding 2015, that "good" was still worse than the years preceding it.
There are three times when our lines historically become difficult - the Spring and Fall schedule changes and the Summer extra flying that stresses staffing. IMO at each of these change points for many years now the schedules have gotten worse and not improved. Cumulative degradation. I say "good" regarding 2015, that "good" was still worse than the years preceding it.
Damn...why do you keep those Bid Packs???
Every year is the same story June and July comes and people "this is the worst I've seen ever".
06-26-2016 | 08:53 AM
#3558
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,054
Likes: 0
The lines ARE the worst ever. In over twenty years, I can solidly attest to that.
To me, that should be the biggest deterrent to coming here yet usually it is the hardest thing to convey to a potential new hire. Our pay sucks, management routinely ignores our contract and grievances take many ears to get heard with little result, movement is much slower than the magic that management is trying to blow up the butts of pilots.
HOWEVER.......the biggest reason to pick somewhere else:
The lines, your schedules, are infinitely worse than other regionals. Management knows this and doesn't care at all - hence why they continue to actually get ever worse.
To me, that should be the biggest deterrent to coming here yet usually it is the hardest thing to convey to a potential new hire. Our pay sucks, management routinely ignores our contract and grievances take many ears to get heard with little result, movement is much slower than the magic that management is trying to blow up the butts of pilots.
HOWEVER.......the biggest reason to pick somewhere else:
The lines, your schedules, are infinitely worse than other regionals. Management knows this and doesn't care at all - hence why they continue to actually get ever worse.
06-26-2016 | 08:55 AM
#3559
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
But I guess all these pilots making these comments are part of some larger conspiracy. Seems plausible to me I suppose. All these pilots got together and decided to make this garbage up to torpedo their airline. In doing so they keep new hires from going there only to see their own QOL suffer as a result. They risk their own flow by keeping new hires from making the mistake of going to Envoy.
Seems to me it would be smarter for all the Envoy pilots to simply make garbage up about how great it is so they can get bodies in the door behind them. The fact that you don't see that speaks volumes to me. These pilots are so beaten down they simply don't care anymore. My guess, it is most likely worse at the Voy than what you read here. As it is now, it goes against an Envoy pilots own best interest in reporting the truth.
06-26-2016 | 09:40 AM
#3560
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 667
Likes: 0
Pretty impressive that happens. Just when you think they could not get worse they manage to find a way to out do the garbage lines year after year.
But I guess all these pilots making these comments are part of some larger conspiracy. Seems plausible to me I suppose. All these pilots got together and decided to make this garbage up to torpedo their airline. In doing so they keep new hires from going there only to see their own QOL suffer as a result. They risk their own flow by keeping new hires from making the mistake of going to Envoy.
Seems to me it would be smarter for all the Envoy pilots to simply make garbage up about how great it is so they can get bodies in the door behind them. The fact that you don't see that speaks volumes to me. These pilots are so beaten down they simply don't care anymore. My guess, it is most likely worse at the Voy than what you read here. As it is now, it goes against an Envoy pilots own best interest in reporting the truth.
But I guess all these pilots making these comments are part of some larger conspiracy. Seems plausible to me I suppose. All these pilots got together and decided to make this garbage up to torpedo their airline. In doing so they keep new hires from going there only to see their own QOL suffer as a result. They risk their own flow by keeping new hires from making the mistake of going to Envoy.
Seems to me it would be smarter for all the Envoy pilots to simply make garbage up about how great it is so they can get bodies in the door behind them. The fact that you don't see that speaks volumes to me. These pilots are so beaten down they simply don't care anymore. My guess, it is most likely worse at the Voy than what you read here. As it is now, it goes against an Envoy pilots own best interest in reporting the truth.
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