NWSteeringArmer

It doesn't really matter what our work rules are... If the deck is always stacked in managements favor and our only recourse is to grieve it and fly it, why would they have any inclination to change their practices... I'm honestly shocked they honor our vacation and monthly and daily open time

F9 Driver

The 2006 contract we work under today has the term "whenever possible" in two (2) places:
1) Leaves of Absence - "A Pilot shall provide notice to the Chief Pilot's office of his projected start (whenever possible) and return date from a Leave of Absence as far in advance as possible."
2) Military Leaves of Absence - "Whenever possible, such notice shall be in writing to the Chief Pilot's office and shall include a copy of the relevant military orders directing the military duty."

Not exactly the smoking gun you're making the term out to be. FAPA's first contract, signed in 2001, was riddled with "whenever possible", and was impossible to enforce.

Bolo

[QUOTE=ClearCreek;2156761]Why are you here then? Please explain to me? Nobody is twisting your arm to stay? I necessarily don't disagree with your points but if this place suck so bad then you can go somewhere else.

Bolo

For everybody that is picking apart our contract, please send your thoughts and ideas to the Negotiating Committee. It is awesome that everybody is pointing out the flaws on APC, but what will it get you? Point them out to the Negotiating Committee where it matters!

F9 Driver

It takes a special kind of business acumen to take to a position, proven (after 8 years of operations and the benefit of hindsight) to be on the wrong side of history. I'm shocked Skybus management didn't actively recruit a talent like you back in 2008.

Where do you see DEN growth attached to any of the concessionary language?

All of your statements about what Indigo would or wouldn't have done in absence of the LOAs are pure speculation. Speculation you made over the span of time you were employed because of the very LOAs you condemn others for voting in favor of. The LOAs signed under RAH kept the Frontier flying from going to Midwest pilots. LOA 67 got the pilots an equity stake in the company, and should allow us a higher pay rate from which to begin Section 6 negotiations.

You absolutely had the right to vote no. You've got the right to keep saying I was wrong for voting yes. I've got the right to point out that you disregard the facts in favor of emotion as you flail about revising history to suit your need to be right.

Keep up the good work. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

FAULTPUSH

I guess Bruce York mislead us then. He said that in most contract negotiations, there are about 60 items to address, but for us, there are only about 20, hence the expectation of getting this done pretty quickly. Those 7 items you mentioned are probably counted in the 20.

You DID see how United's schedules looked like after their run through banktuptcy, right? Scheduled for 90 hours a month with 11 days off.

NoFlaps

Don't forget to include American Airlines in your history lesson. The pilots said "we aint doin it, let the judge decide". Then when the downturn was over, they raised their hands and said "remember us?". Much shorter time of concessions than VOLUNTEERING to take massive concessions and LOCKING it in with a signed contract.

F9 Driver

Yeah - Not very different at all. They just had a MUCH higher starting point than F9. And, if you tell the whole story - AMR pilots took voluntary concessions too, and were rewarded for their efforts to avoid BK with... wait for it.... BK! They took their voluntary cuts years prior to the AMR BK in order to keep their pensions longer and more fully than the other legacy carriers who took the 1113 route in BK around the same time.

From the WSJ April 2, 2003 AMR to Cut Pilot Force by 20%, But Maintain Current Schedule - WSJ AMR to Cut Pilot Force by 20%, But Maintain Current Schedule

"Tuesday, details emerged of the hefty employee concessions. The deals pre-empted an immediate bankruptcy filing by AMR; the timing was so close that a company official told the pilot union's board Monday afternoon that lawyers were minutes from a New York courthouse and a decision was needed right away. Under Chapter 11, American could have sought to void the contracts. As part of the voluntary deal, American's pilots will take a 23% pay cut on May 1. A year later the pay cut drops to 17%, off current wages. Also on May 1 of next year pilots will start receiving annual 1.5% raises each year over the life of the six-year contract, according to the Allied Pilots Association. In exchange, employees get stock options, a boost in profit-sharing payments, nearly all their pension benefits and a pledge from the company to do its best to avoid a bankruptcy-law filing.
With extensive productivity changes, American will shed 2,500 pilot jobs this year, including retirements. The airline already has more than 1,000 pilots on furlough, and the new layoffs will drop a pilot corps to 10,000 from about 13,500.
"If we did not agree to these concessions, it became quite obvious ... that a bankruptcy judge would dictate the terms to us, and the cuts would be even deeper," John Darrah, president of the APA, said in an e-mail to union members.
Pilots agreed to $660 million in concessions. Mechanics and other ground workers agreed to $620 million in cuts, and flight attendants agreed to $340 million in company savings. Management and nonunionized workers will see pay cut by $180 million. Chairman and Chief Executive Donald Carty said his salary will fall by 33% and he will forgo a bonus for the third-consecutive year.
"I am very pleased that the company was able to avoid filing Chapter 11, but I must prepare you for what lies ahead," John Ward, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, told his members. The union hasn't yet released details to its members, but Mr. Ward told them, "There is no denying it, $340 million in annual concessions from our contract isn't pretty."



AMR had billions in the bank prior to sinking it into CapEx, crying poor mouth and filing a prepackaged bankruptcy (DIP in place and the like). Their saying "we aint doin it, let the judge decide" didn't come until their original cuts were disregarded, and BK was happening.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/08/bu...ract.html?_r=0

To round out the history lesson compare and contrast what pushed each company into BK.

Frontier had terrible management (P.T.) who sank tons of cash into buying aircraft with the intention of doing a sale / lease back if they need the cash later. Turns out that nobody wants to lease aircraft, at a decent rate, to a financially troubled airline, and PT's "piggy bank" money could only be gotten to by selling the airplanes outright. The BK filing took less than a week, and didn't have financing in place. It was forced by First Data's decision to increase credit card hold back to 100%.

AMR's BK was tied up with a neat bow before it was dropped on their shareholders and employees. AMR's board did it because they could make more money by doing so, not because they were going out of business without it. Their pilots gave twice; once voluntarily and once during BK.

RockyMntAV8R

Driver, Thanks for all the insults. Just for the record I speculate no more than you as you continue to try to sell 67 as the only deal the pilots (and company) had. You information on why and how an 1113 court imposed concession would have played out is also pure speculation.
While Skybus may have used someone who had a different vision of fiscal responsibility, I would not have been the right person for the job, nothing against OSU but I am not a Buckey fan. I am sure however that every used car lot or telemarketing company would love to enlist a talent like yourself; upsale and slam the deal. The art of selling is truley a gift. It is safe to say we see things differently and I enjoy your post none the less. As the sun sets on another day how would you judge where we are today? I would judge our success or failures by an evaluation of our CBA to that of the industry, and I think you will be pleased by that standard as there is zero speculation in that! I'm signing off of this topic, but look forward to the next debate. I await all you insults. See you on the line. Rocky

Southerndog

Thats the past.... Have you seen United's pay now, and schedules NOW? Then compare that to ours now.

It sounds like even ALPA is selling us short and not wanting to complete a major overhaul of our contract. Anything less than Industry average pay, benefits and work rules will be a NO vote for me. We have been the most underpaid pilot group for years! We operate similar equipment as everyone else but we carry more passengers, Fly crappier schedules, stay in budget hotels, which equals more money per hour in my opinion. Don't listen to Indigo's BS that we are a ULCC and we pay pilots ULCC rates. That argument doesn't work when they buy fuel, lease gate or pay all other fixed expenses, and its centainly won't fly when it comes to pilot pay. I really hope this pilot group for once stands up to these corporate pirates and get whats long overdue.