Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-27-2012 | 10:33 AM
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From: 747-400 Captain
"It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have don them better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms and devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat"
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Carl
05-27-2012 | 10:37 AM
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From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
05-27-2012 | 10:39 AM
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Glad you're able to avoid this discussion (as am I). Many guys will be having it, though. The guys that need the money now will be the surest yes votes.
As for me- no wife/ kids in college/ college fully funded/ minimal mortgage.
Still on the fence re my vote; will have to see a solid plan B before voting no
As for me- no wife/ kids in college/ college fully funded/ minimal mortgage.
Still on the fence re my vote; will have to see a solid plan B before voting no
1) Pilot side: I don't know what we'd want to make better if it failed. I don't think there is a consensus. I suspect money, but that's not a given. I suppose we'd have to poll, and/or fight over this, and both take time.
2) Company side: their credibility is at stake, just like ours. There is no middle ground: if we pass this, it shows our ambitions don't match our rethoric; if the company gives us a better second deal, it sets the stage for TA's that fail. Someone is going to come out looking weak.
3) The precedent: For the most part, second offers have to come back worse than the first, otherwise there is an incentive to stall. Last example at this airline was the JCBA deal. There was more in the first offer, including immediate DC parity. Think about how much this has cost some of the N piltos. At other airlines, the most recent example I see is Air Tran, and we all know how that went.
...
I think (and I'm probably dreaming) that the best possible outcome would be for the negotiators to engage the company NOW, and come up with some face-saving tweaking of this thing. Call it resolving technical issues, tweak a thing or two, and sweeten the pot slightly for the money guys, and it's probably there.
Meanwhile, I don't see the path where we turn it down, and get something better. I'm willing to listen if someone else has a credible plan, and can explain what we rally around, and how we get it done.
05-27-2012 | 10:40 AM
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From: Dismayed
I disagree with you Carl. I think the former regional jet guys realize that this is a scope sell. We do not buy ALPA's argument that getting 70 new 76 seaters that are not currently allowed is good for us. It's the military guys that don't think for themselves that are going to vote this in.
There are any number of ex-Military guys on this board alone who've already come out in opposition to this TA. I haven't decided yet, trying vainly to keep an open mind while strongly leaning no.
You insult the men and women who served your country and now work by your side at Delta. All of whom want what's best for their families.
05-27-2012 | 10:40 AM
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05-27-2012 | 10:42 AM
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From: 747-400 Captain
Glad you're able to avoid this discussion (as am I). Many guys will be having it, though. The guys that need the money now will be the surest yes votes.
As for me- no wife/ kids in college/ college fully funded/ minimal mortgage.
Still on the fence re my vote; will have to see a solid plan B before voting no
As for me- no wife/ kids in college/ college fully funded/ minimal mortgage.
Still on the fence re my vote; will have to see a solid plan B before voting no
Carl
05-27-2012 | 10:42 AM
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From: 765-A
NewK,
It is not my intent to bring up the strike in a negative light. It was my intent to show the results that two different strikes (yours and Spirit) produced.
You guys had no choice but to strike. You had a management team that thought they could "win". Your management team was very, very wrong. You guys did good.
Again, I'm not trying to poke a very honorable effort, but to put context into the discussion of those calling for a "fight." In 1998 your contract (and mine) was in a far different place than 4th in the industry with a TA that would take you to first.
Sorry that my post created the impression of an attack.
It is not my intent to bring up the strike in a negative light. It was my intent to show the results that two different strikes (yours and Spirit) produced.
You guys had no choice but to strike. You had a management team that thought they could "win". Your management team was very, very wrong. You guys did good.
Again, I'm not trying to poke a very honorable effort, but to put context into the discussion of those calling for a "fight." In 1998 your contract (and mine) was in a far different place than 4th in the industry with a TA that would take you to first.
Sorry that my post created the impression of an attack.
We're cool.
05-27-2012 | 10:44 AM
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From: 747-400 Captain
So I have to say, it sure looks like expectations were being managed for a reason, to achieve a predetermined low goal. A status quo if you will.
Because it is kind of interesting how the retort to a line pilot demanding higher pay was "what are you going to give up to get that?" When we started saying DALPA, that line was dropped.
But if higher pay was demanded, we were told to look around at the industry and to ignore SWA and Fedex and focus on UAL. When we looked around we couldn't help but notice SWA, we were told our low pay was due to them and that we should despise them. When we ignored that and said we still liked their pay, we were told do you want their work rules too? They require fewer pilots! We said we don't want fewer pilots, just their W2. Little did we know about the fewer pilots gag.
When we still talked about higher pay we were told expect a never ending section 6. That'd we never be released and time value of money and stuff.
Then after all of that we got this quick TA.
And you have to look at it and wonder was this not the plan all along? Unless we've been in negotiation far earlier than was announced, it seems as if inflation rates of 4/8.5/3/3 was the goal all along. Then you get all of these letters from mostly former NWA LEC chapters and it sure seems like there was a goal separate from the pilots, at least when you look at the pilot survey.
Now back to Section 1.
Because it is kind of interesting how the retort to a line pilot demanding higher pay was "what are you going to give up to get that?" When we started saying DALPA, that line was dropped.
But if higher pay was demanded, we were told to look around at the industry and to ignore SWA and Fedex and focus on UAL. When we looked around we couldn't help but notice SWA, we were told our low pay was due to them and that we should despise them. When we ignored that and said we still liked their pay, we were told do you want their work rules too? They require fewer pilots! We said we don't want fewer pilots, just their W2. Little did we know about the fewer pilots gag.
When we still talked about higher pay we were told expect a never ending section 6. That'd we never be released and time value of money and stuff.
Then after all of that we got this quick TA.
And you have to look at it and wonder was this not the plan all along? Unless we've been in negotiation far earlier than was announced, it seems as if inflation rates of 4/8.5/3/3 was the goal all along. Then you get all of these letters from mostly former NWA LEC chapters and it sure seems like there was a goal separate from the pilots, at least when you look at the pilot survey.
Now back to Section 1.
This!
Carl
05-27-2012 | 10:47 AM
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From: 765-A
Missed this gem while going through all the posts. I usually skim your posts anyway because of their usual doom and gloom tone. Having said that you have just proven the old adage "Better to let people think you're stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
There are any number of ex-Military guys on this board alone who've already come out in opposition to this TA. I haven't decided yet, trying vainly to keep an open mind while strongly leaning no.
You insult the men and women who served your country and now work by your side at Delta. All of whom want what's best for their families.
There are any number of ex-Military guys on this board alone who've already come out in opposition to this TA. I haven't decided yet, trying vainly to keep an open mind while strongly leaning no.
You insult the men and women who served your country and now work by your side at Delta. All of whom want what's best for their families.
It's Memorial Day weekend. Let me take this time to thank all active duty military men, women, and veterans for their service.
That was a great scene from A few Good Men, too. One of the best ever, in my book.
05-27-2012 | 10:52 AM
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From: 777B
Thanks for sharing. I just have to remember your point of view is a little off from the mainstream:
Despite what you post above, scope is significantly tightened in this agreement. From JV to Alaska to DCI, there are more restrictions placed on how DL can use its code without Delta pilots at the controls, and this TA accelerates the transition of flying to the mainline.
The profit sharing conversion removes some risk from the table. In May of 2001 we were arguing over C2K (which some on this board voted against and now they're clamoring for restoration to, go figure). Less than 6 months later the first 400 of 1310 furloughs happened. 1060 of our pilots did not see one dime of benefit from that contract. If pre-tax income in 2013 is identical to last year pilots will see a $28 million reduction in profit sharing. Instead they'll receive about $260 million more in pay. If Iran attacks Israel, if Europe melts down, or if there's something that takes our profitability down pilots have pocketed an additional $40+ million in pay. If we are wildly profitable we still get 20% of the PTIX above $2.5 billion.
I think I'm going to modify my signature line for awhile..thanks for this, Scambo.
Despite what you post above, scope is significantly tightened in this agreement. From JV to Alaska to DCI, there are more restrictions placed on how DL can use its code without Delta pilots at the controls, and this TA accelerates the transition of flying to the mainline.
The profit sharing conversion removes some risk from the table. In May of 2001 we were arguing over C2K (which some on this board voted against and now they're clamoring for restoration to, go figure). Less than 6 months later the first 400 of 1310 furloughs happened. 1060 of our pilots did not see one dime of benefit from that contract. If pre-tax income in 2013 is identical to last year pilots will see a $28 million reduction in profit sharing. Instead they'll receive about $260 million more in pay. If Iran attacks Israel, if Europe melts down, or if there's something that takes our profitability down pilots have pocketed an additional $40+ million in pay. If we are wildly profitable we still get 20% of the PTIX above $2.5 billion.
I think I'm going to modify my signature line for awhile..thanks for this, Scambo.
Slow;
You have my permission to use the signature line, but you are really gonna make PG corkscrew through the roof.
Then he'd have to sick out.
Then I'd have to donate $100 to the charitable fund in his name and while I was walking to the mailbox, I'd trip and fall breaking a nail...and I'd have to sick out.
But you do what you gotta do.
You can choose to believe whatever you want, but you poison the (reasoning) pool if you put your hope and theory out there as fact.
The hope and theory was placed in DALPA and they proved as a fact that they were not on the side of the pilots who pay dues for representation.
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