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Old 04-09-2023, 05:25 AM
  #13421  
The REAL Bluedriver
 
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,880
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Originally Posted by PossibleDeviation View Post
Spirits red/green and drop to zero has been explained here ad nauseaum.. Some on here are just too dense or ignorant to understand it. Thank goodness this JCBA will be hashed out by more than a few einsteins on the interweb...

I bid 70% in base in the right seat. Every month I am able to drop the trips I don't want to fly (sometimes all of them) and list for x/y or pick up quality, straight time trips on days that I choose to work. The ability to drop all the way down to "0" and build back up is invaluable.
I'll take the wisdom from the guy at NK for a WHOLE year passing on a UAL classdate with a huge bucket of salt.

Beyond that, I appreciate all the other responses.

We need red/green language relief here, badly. I won't apologize for wanting to protect those (hopefully) gains and wanting those gains distributed equitably for the benefit of the whole group. If DTZ (or DT30-40-50) doesn't harm those gains for everyone, for the benefit of the few, that's great. I'll continue to read these posts and take the info in prior to surveys.
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Old 04-09-2023, 05:31 AM
  #13422  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Position: A320 FO
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Originally Posted by Flyby1206 View Post
It has been explained, but those of in blue shirts have seen many examples of language written clearly in the CBA that the company twists and interprets a completely different way. I’m glad it’s working out for you guys, and hope we can lock down some even better language in a JCBA to ensure it stays effective for everyone.
I think this is a very salient point. How would the B6 management interpret and operate their current contract? If the Spirit pilots and contract suddenly appeared at B6, my bet is that it would immediately get worse for them. Hopefully some of the Spirit management comes over and dilutes the current attitudes that our management has towards contract compliance.
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Old 04-09-2023, 06:56 AM
  #13423  
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
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Originally Posted by Stomper View Post
Bluedriver you don’t fully yet understand the red/green system.

Here we are April 8th and there’s only 2 red days in LAS on the captain grid the rest of April. Tomorrow, Easter is one of them.
Initial open time (seniority based) long ago ended in mid-March. Daily open time (first come first served) continues throughout the month. Anyone who truly wanted DTZ has already achieved that and the grid is still almost completely green allowing nearly complete flexibility for anyone who needs to adjust their schedule.
However, open time pairings are mostly the less desirable trips but there is still churn as pilots drop and swap with open time or as sick calls and broken pairings due to a variety of reasons end up in open time.
If I spontaneously decided to DTZ today well into the bid month I still could.
Your above mentioned scenario of just the top few pilots able to take advantage of DTZ is inaccurate. I’m ~55% in base and I could DTZ today if desired.
So just because we can DTZ that does NOT mean the grid the remains red the rest of the month. Pilots who drop trips have those trips swap into by others who prefer those dropped trips creating this mixing and matching of trips throughout the month.
Equilibrium is the ultimate goal of the Red/Green system. Some pilots drop. Other pilots pick up.
One time an NK pilot explained the red/green and mentioned something about management being able to set only one reserve count threshold for everyday of that month. Can someone confirm or explain this part again? I believe thats an important part in the red/green language.

Currently, B6 sets different rsv numbers for different days in the month, and its not based on whats in open time. Gives them flexibility but screws us.
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Old 04-09-2023, 07:22 AM
  #13424  
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Joined APC: Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by FLYBOYMATTHEW View Post
Atlantic City is an anomaly by every stretch of the imagination. The CA grid for April right now in my base has 5 total red days for the month, and 3 of those are red by only 1 number. So, if somebody picks up an open trip touching one of those 3 days, it'll no longer be red, and someone else would be able to drop a trip on that day in first come first serve priority. I myself wanted to drop a trip this month that touched a red day earlier in the month. Waited a couple days until it wasn't red anymore, and voila, now I'm off next week.
Is the grid just as green in June and July? What about December?
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Old 04-09-2023, 10:26 AM
  #13425  
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Originally Posted by Bgood View Post
One time an NK pilot explained the red/green and mentioned something about management being able to set only one reserve count threshold for everyday of that month. Can someone confirm or explain this part again? I believe thats an important part in the red/green language.

Currently, B6 sets different rsv numbers for different days in the month, and its not based on whats in open time. Gives them flexibility but screws us.
The grid levels are set based on historical values and 75% of the days of the month must be set to green at the start of initial open time. The company can pick which days they want their up to 25% of red days to be. I have seen many months over the years that started much more than 75% green. Yes a day could set green by one but the historical language prevents this most of time.

The grid language was blatantly violated by spirit management 10yrs ago. We had to take it to arbitration and the pilots won. The language has been negotiated and tested and reaffirmed. There is no grey area now.

Currently in my base and seat only the weekends are red by a number or two. All the weekdays are still green by large margins and anyone could drop if they wanted and we are a third of the way into the month. Yes weekends and holidays usually turn red first from drops in initial open time.
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Old 04-09-2023, 10:33 AM
  #13426  
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Originally Posted by PSU Flyer View Post
Is the grid just as green in June and July? What about December?
Yes it’s required to be. Granted in demand off days tend to change to red quicker than in other months bc more people are likely to want time off. However, our vacation language helps this as well because they have to distribute the vacation weeks evenly across the year and cannot just make the majority of available vacation weeks in September or January meaning a lot of pilots may already have vacation during in demand months which would reduce their desire to drop and turn the grid red most likely
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Old 04-09-2023, 01:54 PM
  #13427  
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Originally Posted by Noisecanceller View Post
The grid levels are set based on historical values and 75% of the days of the month must be set to green at the start of initial open time. The company can pick which days they want their up to 25% of red days to be. I have seen many months over the years that started much more than 75% green. Yes a day could set green by one but the historical language prevents this most of time.

The grid language was blatantly violated by spirit management 10yrs ago. We had to take it to arbitration and the pilots won. The language has been negotiated and tested and reaffirmed. There is no grey area now.

Currently in my base and seat only the weekends are red by a number or two. All the weekdays are still green by large margins and anyone could drop if they wanted and we are a third of the way into the month. Yes weekends and holidays usually turn red first from drops in initial open time.
Honestly this is how it was at JB pre-CBA when we had a single reserve grid. Weekends were the only days that were red and it was simple to swap for the most part.
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Old 04-09-2023, 02:47 PM
  #13428  
Bluediver the REAL deal
 
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Originally Posted by Flyby1206 View Post
Honestly this is how it was at JB pre-CBA when we had a single reserve grid. Weekends were the only days that were red and it was simple to swap for the most part.
“They wouldn’t do that.” “We didn’t think they’d do that.” “We asked, they said no.”
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Old 04-09-2023, 05:54 PM
  #13429  
The REAL Bluedriver
 
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Originally Posted by Noisecanceller View Post
Yes it’s required to be. Granted in demand off days tend to change to red quicker than in other months bc more people are likely to want time off. However, our vacation language helps this as well because they have to distribute the vacation weeks evenly across the year and cannot just make the majority of available vacation weeks in September or January meaning a lot of pilots may already have vacation during in demand months which would reduce their desire to drop and turn the grid red most likely
Vacation weeks distributed completely even throughout the year?
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Old 04-09-2023, 06:20 PM
  #13430  
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The grid only goes red immediately in LAS on the FO side at NK. I’ve never heard any complaints at other bases and all the DOT grids I’ve seen have been 85%+ green.

And LAS is where all the new FOs get their build-up lines, so when those opentime trips go to a relief line, the days go green. Perfectly doable to drop everything even in Vegas.
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