Powderkeg

The problem is, we won’t. Unless those that say we have more leverage than NK because we didn’t have a TRO filed against us are right, I’m afraid if they ratify this they cement our future. They will establish the pattern and it’s a lot lower than we want it to be. I expect a similar TA or one without PBS and less money. Unfortunately.

Please, please please, NC, prove me wrong. Please!

Mugatu

Thanks, Duct Mon. Management is obviously trolling here, pushing what you and I already know. Keep it up!!

Total economic package AND work rules, folks. Look at the whole picture.

We can’t be released soon enough.

dracir1

So much more to an airline contract than pay rates. If the company can change rules in their favor wrt vacation, retirement, provide cheaper hotels and van services, have you pay all your medical insurance costs, control line building, etc., then they will be able to maximize their profits via scheduling while paying you a wage increase most of which they received in revenue from your increase in labor. 117 provides only so much protection.

Plus, the one thing everyone seems to forget is that these contract negotiations occur periodically - who knows what the economic and political climate will be like 5 years from now.

If there was EVER a time to get as much as possible, it’s now.

motorboatin

This is spot on. Why are so many of you getting your panties wadded up by the language related to Spirit’s work rules? You’ve obviously not been paying attention. The only relevant data from Spirit that crosses over to us is the economic piece. Spirit’s transition, PBS, reassignment, etc. are all their own and have no relevance to us. Now their $243/hr blended rate and DC agreements make a major impact on us because of how our business models align. Work rules will be different everywhere and it’s based upon the nuances of the individual operation. I talk to our NC frequently (and they tell me I’m one of the few regulars that do call them consistently) and they’ve tried to make these points clear in their comms. Most of our work rules have been negotiated, as they’ve explained in the newsletters, so I can’t understand why so many people are reacting to the Spirit language like it’s ours!! Use your god-given heads and don’t react!! Think about the nonsense you’re spewing and reach out to these guys. Remember folks...the Spirit deal is not ours! It only provides an economic framework that strengthens our position at the table, AND THE NMB GETS IT!

motorboatin

You’re correct in your statements about pay being only one component of the contract. What I don’t get is your slant that we’ll have to agree to what Spirit has in these other sections. Don’t you understand that the areas in which you are b!tching and griping have already been closed out. Reassignment is done, reserve is done, 117 is done, IROP is done, training is done, etc. And how the hell do even dream up something as ignorant as having to pay ALL your medical costs?? Do you really think that the negotiators are so fu#€’ing stupid to do something like that, moreover do think the MEC would then allow that to go to the pilots for a vote? The NC guys have said all along that the mediators would string the Co up by the short and curlys if they tried backing out of the already agreed upon sections- it’s not gonna happen so quit with the ridiculous theories and doom and gloom. And I don’t think anyone has forgotten the fact that negotiations only occur periodically. Why don’t you reach out to the reps and have an awakening experience. Please have a response that’s more original than calling me a troll. Thank you.

Wheelswatch

I understand what you're getting at in your last two posts. But since every contract has a total dollar amount stamped on the front cover (so to speak)... Won't Spirit's total contract costs be factored heavily by the NMB in determining our fate?

I'm just asking - because if you're saying we're ahead of Spirit on already closed out work rule sections, wouldn't we be expect to take less on either rates, retirement, scope, insurance, LTD, or what have you?

I just hope the NK pilot's knock it down.

dracir1

Do you really think for one minute that all that’s left to negotiate is pay rates and a few other small items and that NOTHING else can be re-looked into? Really. Vacation is done never to be discussed again regardless of how the pay rate discussion goes?

Honestly, even if you were right, that really doesn’t matter because there is ZERO guarantee that the first AIP that gets sent to a vote will become a TA. Your attitude, if you really are an F9 pilot, is the exact reason I continue to post what I do. Your behavior is defeatist. It’s hopeless. It’s acting scared - like you’d rather settle for some mediocre sh!t then really fight for what you deserve. Youve already decided what the vacation rules will be simply because that was told to you midway through a negotiation.

NCs do NOT make contracts. WE, the pilot FORCE, do. We vote contracts into place. We decide what is good for us. That’s you and I and the other pilots employed by F9. If the first attempt at a contract isn’t good enough, then WE send the NC back for another round.

So I have no idea if you’re a troll or not. But to accept something that you find substandard just because it’s a slight improvement . . . Another word comes to mind for that. Truthfully, I hope this IS a troll post and really not coming from one of my brethren...

BTW, ask some other airlines how much the pilot share is for medical insurance. I never said the company should pay 100% but it should never be this high (and that doesn’t even include the ridiculous family/spouse surcharges).

motorboatin

My attitude is not defeatist, my attitude is one of reasonability.

Mediocre sh!t?? Negative sir, that’s what we have now. Consider the improvements we’ll gain, not some pie in the sky dream of what you feel as though your entitled. The childhood dream you obviously still cling to of being a revered and well respected airline pilot, died the day you chose to stay a narrow body airbus guy at a sh!thole, greyhoud’esque carrier. It’s just the simple reality.

I think you should also study up on ALPA policy, because we the regular pilots have no voice on what we vote on. The LEC, the voting members of our MEC are the ones who decide what gets voted on and what doesn’t. I’m guessing you’re not one of them, so your high-horse attitude about what the pilots do and don’t do is an oversimplification. Obviously we get to vote on and decide whether a TA ratifies but only after our elected officials feel it is compelling enough to send off in ballot form.

$166 to ($240something) is simply not a slight improvement. It’s over 45% increase, and that doesn’t include the DC!! So maybe ‘slight’ is a relative term, but I don’t think any accountant in the country that did your taxes the year before and then again the year after your new contract would consider your new taxable income base to be ‘slight.’

No, you didn’t say the company should pay 100% of medical. You said “if the company can change rules in their favor with respect to vacation, retirement, provide cheaper hotels and van services, have you pay all your medical insurance costs” You’re creating a hypothetical scenario with a statement like that which shows your lack of understanding, to support your agenda which is to get what YOU want because of what YOU think is most important. That is not how this works. You think the pilots should hold out for unreasonable numbers and improve everything. Well I’ll tell you what brother, I appreciate your wants and desires, but they’re unreasonable. If you were at the controls, sounds like you’d rather hold your ground at $166/hr for eternity because you feel as though you’re owed more than whats currently on the table. Meanwhile you continue to fall further and further behind, thus creating an even more impossible to fix situation. Yes, the proverbial snowball effect.

As an aside, the surcharges, if you’d done any of your homework, do exactly with our healthcare what the F9 business model does with bag fees. It’s an à la carte plan. Pay for what you need. Cut the surcharge and then you socialize the costs of the policy equally to all enrollees. It’s not just a fee that “goes away” because dracir doesn’t like it. Those with kids and a working spouse pay more because they use more of the policy benefits. Get rid of the surcharge, then those without the additional needs help fund those that use more. It’s very simple, but I have a suspicion that you’d be very unhappy paying more every month for your so called brethren just to see the surcharge go away, unless of course you’re one of the guys that has a slew of kids. In that case I’d bet that you’d love to see your brethren pay more to support your family and your life choices.

SFA320

Pay for what you need. Cut the surcharge and then you socialize the costs of the policy equally to all enrollees. It’s not just a fee that “goes away” because dracir doesn’t like it. Those with kids and a working spouse pay more because they use more of the policy benefits. Get rid of the surcharge, then those without the additional needs help fund those that use more. It’s very simple, but I have a suspicion that you’d be very unhappy paying more every month for your so called brethren just to see the surcharge go away, unless of course you’re one of the guys that has a slew of kids. In that case I’d bet that you’d love to see your brethren pay more to support your family and your life choices.”


I was for the most part agreeing with you until the insurance portion of your rant. I have my “slew” of a whole 2 kids, 3rd is now on the way. So I guess that will make it an enormous multitude of kids. I will have to pay the surcharge in about 7.5 months. Absolutely ridiculous if you ask me. Last I checked the guy paying for a family insurance plan is already “penalized” by paying more than 3x than the single guy is paying. Then you pay the surcharge to make it around 4x the amount. I mean come on, name one other company, airline or not that you personally know that does this. My friends that are pilots and non pilots look at me in utter disbelief when I explain to them the surcharge at F9. Here’s a brillant idea, no surcharges and the company pays all but 20-30% of the premium like almost every other airline that is out there. Earth shattering.

motorboatin

The company does pay 30%